Recruitment Done Better | Operation Automation Podcast

People apply for jobs to work with People maybe not particularly brands for The right people you need to spend more Money we have this thing that we Fundamentally have to do and both sides Really don't like it count on this Somewhat personalized approach that is Not always possible especially nowadays When so many things and so many Communications are automated [Music] Hi everyone it's me Yeah I'm here with mihal today and that Means this is a brand new episode of Operation automation the episode of the Sprint 4 when we're talking about Building meaningful relationships within Our teams with other teams with our Customers with all the beautiful people Out there and what is the best way to Start building meaningful relationship Then by having a really fascinating Recruitment process Unfortunately not many recruitment Processes are flawless I'm by far too Familiar with it as a candidate but I Don't know too much about it from the Recruiter side so mihal do you want to Have the mic here Sure so I definitely have some Experience with hiring folks for the Content Partnerships team like that get Response but also supported other teams Within the marketing department

Um and yeah I can definitely vouch that Having a smooth hiring process is Difficult and as a hiring manager There's a lot of work that you need to Do for every single job that we posted We had more than 100 or 200 people Applying and it takes a lot of time to Review everyone's applications their CVS To go through the LinkedIn profiles if They link them with with their Applications or going through their Tasks and then meeting with these people Uh you know especially when we're hiring Remotely it is challenging it takes a Lot of time and especially if you're new To this to this role You do need a partner on the talent Acquisition team to help you filter out The right people to to talk to to the Right people and and make sure that you Make the right decision when hiring Folks and it does take a lot of Experience takes a lot of times always a Learning process So it takes a lot of money for the Company Yeah it definitely does was that's Interesting so Um you know that when we're hiring new People it doesn't come from our budgets You know to post the job offers on Different websites and this is what we Talked to the talent acquisition team And there are so many websites where you

Can publish the the job uh postings on And some of them are more expensive some Of them are cheaper then there's LinkedIn you know with every single New Year there are new apps that people use To to apply for jobs and it's impossible With the you know bootstrapped budget to Uh to just be everywhere and to show Show your offers everywhere so it Definitely takes a lot of money and even For people to just go through the Applications to talk to people to call To them follow up with them uh yeah it Is expensive and but for the right People you need to spend more money Apparently yeah that's that's Beautifully sad and as a candidate you Also have High Hopes because usually You're looking for a job you can often Be in this vulnerable honorable position Where you need to find something right Away you expect people to take your Situation into consideration so you Count on this somewhat personalized Approach that is not always possible Especially nowadays when so many things And so many Communications are automated Yeah I can actually admit that you know I've made a mistake in the past where When I was hiring folks for our team I Didn't take hiring uh as important as it Should be you know it was an additional Task to all the things that I was doing Throughout the week so I was trying to

Squeeze in between the the errands that I had the reviewing process of Applications and going over the CVS and Making sure that our job offer is Actually fully described in the way it Should be so you know the process took Longer than it should have so in my Opinion right now if I was hiring for For a new role I would definitely make It as a task itself you know for that Week or for those two weeks if I'm Hiring someone this is the main priority To find the right person to help you out Don't put yourself in a super busy Position and say like oh I don't have Time for hiring people well you are Hiring people to make sure that they can Help you in the future so you know it's Like with delegating tasks sometimes it Takes time to delegate tasks but you Know hiring the right people will help You in the future and they will save you Time and especially if you're trying to Scale a team this is you know your Number one priority at that time to hire The right people Absolutely And I hope automation can help everybody Get more out of the process that's why Today we're talking about how automating Your recruitment can be beneficial for Both the recruiter and the candidate That's right so today our guest is Mick Griffin who is the chief growth officer

At traffic and traffic for those of you That aren't familiar with with them yet This is a software that helps you Recruiters in posting job offers Managing candidates sending them Personalized messages RNG meetings with The most suitables and most suitable Candidates but it's not just software to Help smoothen the hiring process for the Recruiters it's also the software that Helps the critique candidates that apply For different companies to make the Hiring process super super smooth and Super good so this is this is traffic And we're super happy to have Mick Griffin joining us for today's episode Maker shared so many great tips and Advice that hopefully will make the Recruitment of the future a much more Pleasant experience for all the parties Involved so I hope you like the episode And let's Jump Right In [Music] Hi everyone today we're going to be Talking about Automation in recruitment Before we get started I have a question For you what is a single thing in life Do you wish you could automate life no Matter what yep wow oh I'm mine are Going to sound really bad uh I've Probably got two options and one is one Is a haircut and two is putting gas in My car right like if I if I could just Click my fingers I would love them I

Don't know why but that's probably Because I'm literally having a haircut Tomorrow so I'm very biased right now But I'm sure there were some smarter Answers out there I have no doubt so how Would you automate your haircuts It would definitely be something that Would happen when I'm sleeping yeah I Would just be able to go to bed one day And say like okay tomorrow I wake up With this style and somehow through the Magic of Technology it would be it would Be but uh I'm gonna I'm sure I'm gonna Be like I'm gonna wake up tomorrow and Go no I could have given such a better Answer to that question but here we are That's it Yeah who knows who knows maybe there's Gonna be like you know at least like a Few startups somewhere trying to solve This very real problem so yeah I think Could make like a helmet or something so It's like a helmet yeah go to sleep in And it scans the ideal hairstyle you've Selected and applies it to you but it Can be dangerous potentially some Somebody posted lately that like AI will Be part of every business in 10 years And I made a joke comment saying oh I Will tell my my hairdresser I will tell My stylist thinking that you know this Doesn't apply to every business we Always think about technology and the The person who posted it sent me links

To three AI related hairdresser apps but I think yeah I think it's really cool in Like uh fashion styling because you can Basically use AI to find whatever works Best for you like the shape of hair or The shape of eyebrows so I I helped my Hand up and I said yeah my joke fell on Its face but I'm happy because now I Know something I didn't know so so yeah Who knows who knows addresses are not uh Not too far away from technology it Seems exactly Okay so thank you so much I personally Like this answer and we got a lot of Really interesting ways to automate our Everyday lives so this is definitely not An ordinary one appreciated Uh would you please introduce yourself To our listeners tell us who you are What you do and why we're talking about Recruitment today yeah sure I'll do my Very best so first of all yeah thanks Very much for inviting me People I haven't had a pleasure to know Before which is probably a lot my name Is Mick Griffin uh my my title is uh Chief growth officer at Trafford Um here which is great because when you Work in startups they let you pick your Own job title Um and uh basically the long story short For the last 15 years I've been working In mostly SAS technology startups so Pleasure of starting all 15 years ago in

Get response Um and then moved to Brand 24 and now I'm in Trafford and uh I'm that today's Great and I'm really happy to talk about Kind of Recruitment and automation today Because obviously I I have kind of like Two hats on today so one is I can talk About a little bit about how traffic is Using automation to grow as a business But I've really been very lucky the last Two years to see how because traffic is A recruitment system I can see how Automation and recruitment are now Getting closer and closer every day so Yeah we I'm super happy to kind of touch On both of those those topics and I Think you know also happy to kind of uh If if my experience of of those 15 years Even about just also like genuine hiring Practices and recruitment in general Growing teams hiring people also super Happy to chemical Brilliant because we have so many Questions because you know now when You've mentioned growth so I believe That recruitment is definitely like a Huge part of growth right [Music] I wanted to ask you like how do you Attract and like you know recruit top Marketing Talent yep it's a great Question and I I need to make sure that I don't talk about it for 20 minutes It's a really nice question so you know

I think the the first thing that you Have to accept and one of my first Advices is that we always have to Remember that it's constantly changing So whatever the tactic was to do this a Year ago five years ago ten years ago It's it's changing like it's so Dynamic So like one of the ones I would say now Is that it's it's it's like Um it's something that we've we I Learned in sales a long time ago which Is this like people buy from people We've always said this like people don't Really buy from Brands they like to have Faces and names and so on and I think Recruitment now especially at mid to High end levels people apply for jobs to Work with people maybe not particularly Brands I think this is a this is a big One now so one of the one of the really Things to do uh is to obviously invest In your personal brand a little bit as Well if you're a hiring manager out There of Marketing sales growth Whichever the role is um just remember That you keep like people will want to Also work with you not only your company Not only your your employer so Um I think this is a really important One and the other thing as well is you And this is a really hard one we might Dig into this one today just just like Uh Traditional marketing tactics

Certificate you've also got to play the Long game so if you want to uh one of The biggest things in recruitment now is Going to be building trust and the Market is probably developing that all Right so now we've got a bunch of Companies out there that had to make uh Codes layoffs and so on so now people Are questioning oh my God am I safe in My company is it a good time to move so Trust is a really hard thing now to get Someone to move from company A to B but Then on the flip side if you were Affected by those layers or you're in The recruitment Market you're now Thinking how do I trust my next employer Is not going to let this happen to me Again and trust is something that we Really have a hard thing building like Instantly so what we've got to do now is Make sure as businesses as individuals As hiring managers in my opinion is play The long game so you know build Relationships let people get to know About your company so when they are Looking to if you wake up in the morning You think okay it's probably time for me To have a new role of experience you Want to to be one of the companies in The back of their minds like yeah it Might be time for me to finally go and Talk to Mick about if if something is Available at traffic if something is Available like get responsive something

Is available at Brand 24. Um and that's really easy to say and how To do because if you're watching this Podcast and you go oh yeah but I can't Do that tomorrow and I need to hire some Some on tomorrow but I think it's I Think that's what we might see now over The next two or three years in Recruitment is building relationships Not like only when you need someone but You've got to think three months six Months before it's time to go and have a Present a profile in that market of uh Really smart Performance Marketing People because probably in the next six Months I'm gonna need one so because the Alternative of the brand building and The long game and stuff like that which You know to be honest how like the only Reason I know this tactic and this is Something that I've learned through Probably mostly like a traffic is you Have to do that when you don't have a Big budget when you can go and throw Money at a problem and and there's Nothing wrong with that if you have a Budget but I think the alternative Bunnies okay well we have to offer Really competitive salary we have to go And post on five job boards we you know We're gonna have to Spend money to bridge that trust Gap Instead um but like yeah I mean I think That this is this is where my my my

Concept here is always trying to think About what is around the corner I think This is also probably this tactic or the Advice I gave you to or the answer to This question is it's probably more how I think things are going to look in the Coming months it maybe it's not really Required today but um I I talked to a Really interesting uh influencer and Recruitment lately in Romania for Example where we are investigating and She she totally said that she thinks That job seeking will actually die Eventually and it will all be sourcing Career management head hunting type of Thing that you know they they have in in The tech space for example in Romania Now they have such a saturation of jobs And not enough candidates that people Don't need to go to job boards they just Need to go and that's that's where I Think that it's probably an extreme but I think that Um that's why you you don't want to Start a recruitment process with a Candidate who knows zero about you when Possible you want to at least they Should recognize the brand or they Should recognize a name or they should Be oh I kind of heard about you guys Kind of thing and I'm I'm that that's The kind of uh thing that I think we Need to start playing uh the long game About uh now um but but probably this is

Also like I said I'm probably thinking Maybe a step or two ahead now you can Probably and now you can post a job on a Job board and get some candidates and You're gonna be okay but we are also Seeing this trend now that uh job boards Are really successful or having a high Uh attrition rate or entry positions but When you start to hire mid-level c-level Five years experience 10 years Experience that's where it's hardier Because we're in demanding we're in a Great position I think everybody on this Podcast we're in a really nice position Because startups are growing out every Day you know we're talking now about the Fact that if if 10 000 people got laid Off on Facebook that we can expect 500 Startups out of that group of people Because some people will decide I'm not Going to go for another job I'm gonna Take control which but there are not Always the people to work in them so it Is it is an interesting time Um but yeah so still food for especially Engine positions are great people Looking for jobs that makes sense but we Are seeing more and more that midden Senior level positions uh advertising Jobs is not such an easy thing to do When you're starting from scratch so This question that I'm dreading every Time I'm having a job interview as of How you've heard of us or have you heard

Of us uh it exists for a reason right It does I think you know if we are Talking about like if I'm if I'm making Us if we look at maybe the recruitment Process very uh instance we are talking About obviously a fundamental switch of Power from employer to at least moving To halfway where employees now have more And more power they have they can they Can check you they can Google you they Can check your reviews they can talk to Or they can find other employees on LinkedIn and they obviously have other Offers so in the past I feel like a lot Of the power of a recruitment process Was with the person doing the higher why Should we hire you why are you good Enough and now the tables are turning an Evening out so where employees are Saying why are you hiring did someone Leave did somebody resign is there how Many people do you lose a year we're Seeing all these memes and stuff like Creeping into social media and Linkedin Now where we are showing that the power Is even now but yeah it it is important How did you hear about us Um but also what is becoming more Important is like what do you know about Us yeah what have you heard so far about It's that kind of question sure so Actually it's it's interesting Um because very like for me at least Like the whole experience like this

Recruitment experience it relies mostly On the person on the recruiter on the Person hiring you because like first of All this is like your first contact with The company very often okay if it's Outsourced it's a different story but I'm thinking about a situation where you Have your HR team uh responsible for the Recruitment process within the company [Music] So I wanted to ask you like okay what do You think about the recruiter and the Process like you know what what should Be how how do we develop these two Skills like you know the skills the the The personal skill of a recruiter plus The process that might be something more Tied to the company perhaps it's yeah I Mean it's it's a really good question I Funny thing is like when I when I joined That I was like when I joined traffic I Was an obviously in the high task space I came from email marketing social media And one of the things when I was Starting to do discovery which was Really crazy where I was like I was Talking to people like companies saying Like do you enjoy recruiting people no I Hate it it's a really hard scary Horrible process and then I'm going Candidates do you like recruitment Processes no it's a really scary Stressful process wait so we have this

Thing that we fundamentally have to do And both sides really don't like it so It's a very unusual thing going on here In recruitment but so one of the things That I think uh recruiters I I first of Like the everything is I think Recruiters are really Under Pressure They have a really tough job Um like fundamentally we we know the Research is you know hey Tara coming out Of the stereotype of being a cost Department undervalued and I've always Had this thing about Um HR teams need to be celebrated more Um and that's one thing we need to do we Need to boost that we need to empower Our recruiters and our hat teams and I'll give you a prime example you've Probably had this like I've had it um I've I've got a long uh history of sales And you close that big deal you close That client you hit that Target and it's Company-wide post on slack hey everybody We hit our Target how amazing we just Find this great customer great and that Is great for the company now let's say That the recruitment team and the Company they close the recruitment for a Really good seasoned Um sales rep let's say sales rep or Sales representative it doesn't get Celebrated tall yet that sales rep is Probably going to have a bigger impact On the company than that one big sale

But we are not celebrating it yeah we Are and this this this is something that I think we need to like fundamentally I Think that's one element maybe it's a Bit more high level but coming back to The original topic of how to kind of the Things that we can do um one thing we Also need to do in organizations is uh The recruitment process we need to make It as seamless as possible and what I Mean is like recruitment processes are Like sales processes so what happens is First things first a candidate mostly Interacts with some form of online Technology it's an application form it's A website it's a career page it's a it's A very online experience then in the Traditional sense they will interact With a recruiter within a company that Will do some kind of screening Recruiters generally are really nice People they have really good patience They ask nice questions and then at some Point we probably involve a supervisor Or hiring manager of the actual role so We we switched to a manager who isn't Recruiting every day and then that can That can actually uh become like a Really big change in approach in Atmosphere you went from a really nice Speeding call like was really friendly With a recuda and then you go into the Next call with the hiring manager and They're like how would you solve this

Problem like you know why you didn't hit 90 of your target last year why you know And it suddenly becomes a very Um impactful because that that that Hiring manager also has a different Motivation they want to hire a they're Not thinking about culture and then you Switch back to the recruiter for the the Negotiation of salary for example and And excuse me we had this we had Customers in the past you would interact With the website then you would get a Really motivated sales representative Trying to sell you the product then you Would be passed to customer support who Have a different vibe and now you know We we learn from that and now we try to Streamline those things right so Marketing sales customer support they Talk they meet they try to synergize and They try to limit this feeling of being Passed from one Department to another For a customer we have to the same with Candidates we have to make that that Like those people involved in Recruitments first of all they have to Meet before they start recruiting okay What's the goal how do we want to do This how does this work and that still Is a very rare situation that doesn't Really happen so much that that Communication part and that taking care Of the candidate part doesn't still Really happen it's like okay that was

Great we've verified you on the Screening call you're going to meet with Such a person in two weeks from now That's not actually particularly Candidate friendly because two weeks is A huge amount of time and it's because We are disconnected and then the other Thing that where where that Synergy Falls apart or is is lost is also Information from the candidate I feel Sorry for candidates in a way where the Application form says tell us your Experience then on the screening call Tell us your experience then you meet The hiring manager they tell me your Experience like that can you imagine if You were trying to sign a customer and You ask that customer to enter their Credit if they have details three times They would not buy your product so we But the lucky thing is is we just we get To we get to learn from sales processes Marketing processes and apply it to Recruitment now the reason why we the Recruitment is a little bit later is Because again the power was with Employers I'm the employer I don't have To care if you tell me your details Three times if you want the job do the Work and now candidates the same no it's Okay thank you I'll go with you know Employer bee employees so if that's That's forcing The Innovation a little That's true and I was gonna say at the

Beginning that Um Eric mentioned that the recruiter is Sort of the face of the company and they Represent the brand and honestly I don't Really trust recruiters because they are So easily cheerful easily like Everything is going to be great you're Going to have an amazing team you're Gonna have a fantastic job we're just a Really good bunch of people here Um and it doesn't necessarily mean Anything because they work in their HR Team I'm not a part of the HR team so Good for for them for having a friendly Team and fruity Thursdays but they Usually don't even know what it's like In the marketing team and this has Happened to me so many times that I ask For example like I don't know and what Is the scope of responsibilities of the Department what is the day-to-day work Looks like in the department and it'd be Like um yeah we don't really know but in HR it looks this way I'm like well I Don't care what it looks like in HR I I It's so true and the questions part is The key yeah they have like don't trust Anymore the sunshine and Roses picture We don't trust anymore that every day is Great everybody's happy you get to play Ping pong all day like we don't trust This anymore because we don't want to Even it's not invited but but you know I Always do this like in my interviews now

Anikarawa head of culture here will Laugh when she when she listens to this Because we I have this goal from an Interview process and I always give a Hypothetical uh you made you can either You've either experienced this or you Can relate which is you get a new job You get off of the job you accept and You are Most people are full of energy and Enthusiasm yeah I got a job finally I Got my I got my job you know a traffic I'm so excited and you joined that Company and that energy level is high And if you experience something on the In the first day of work that you didn't Know about like that oh my God my target Is this or oh my god do you expect me to Be in the office five days a week that Energy goes from here to zero instantly And my goal from the recruitment process Is actually how can we keep the energy Level for weeks how can we keep that Enthusiasm for weeks the only way we can Do that is in the recruitment process Give the good and the bad listen traffic Is a hot mess some days it's organized Okay else like I have to let you know Like this is some time let me even give You an example of what happened yeah let Me give you let so that they don't if You give them time to process that and Like you said that has the the recruiter Has to be on board with that the hiring

Manager have to be involved it has to be Synergy like synergized between Everybody but yeah you've also got you Know like like you said otherwise people Just not gonna trust you nowadays it's Something just too good to be true is a Real thing in recruitment now right so So what we're going to do now is go over Some of the things that happen to us Ourselves in our recruitment history our Pain points and painful memories and you Can try and save future marketers and Sales professionals from repeating our Mistakes oh my so I'm I'm here now Holding the whole recruitment industry On my shoulders I'm I'm excited I'm Ready exactly it's my favorite part of This podcast I think one of those things I hate the Most is when you're filling in the Application so as early on is failing The job application and it asks you to Connect your LinkedIn profile to Manually upload your CV and then to Enter the same information that's Already been there twice manually in Different parts of the application is There any way to keep that from Happening uh yes So so basically all employers have the Ability to bypass this process so one is Through technology and you know what What there are now they're really nice Products out there where if you upload a

CV uh of course what did what what the System can do is it can scan a CV and Pull out the data and put it into data Fields right so the fun what the reason Why this is sadly being duplicated is Because companies are saying I want UCB Because I want to read it but I want you To import all this data because I want To be able to use it in like a database Scenario like show me all the people That have three years experience in this That and the other but right now they Are not connecting the dots between the Two because it does take some some Technology and a little bit of work and Why why this is not yet mainstream is Because we have a little bit of a Free-for-all on CBS so we have one Person that makes a really plain Word Document then we'll have the Other Extreme which is someone is like I'm Going for a designer job I'm gonna use Figma or canva or photoshop and I'm Going to show my design skills in my CV And when you put it into the system the System says I have no idea what this Says so it's purely for visual which Which I think is okay I I probably Before I joined traffic I was a little Bit anti-cv in general I feel like it's Super old school but I'm talking I Always use this word I'm always talking From a place of LinkedIn privilege like We're in the tech sector so yeah if

You're not on LinkedIn I'm probably not Hiring you anyway so I know that that Doesn't apply to like manufacturing jobs And things like that for example um but The the fundamental that is the reason Why recruiters and and systems now they Want to have databases of data they Don't know how to get it from the CBR They haven't invested in getting it from The CV so but now they're saying give me Both my fundamental element is that I Think you could probably live with Neither I mean I I don't I I think Unless you are hiring on a on a on a Huge scale data is helpful but not Necessary to like ruin the candidate Experience so I can I I'm happy asking For a CBR or LinkedIn profile and I Don't really need that to be in my Recruitment system because because I'm Not recruiting at a scale where I need To say show me everybody who worked in a Marketing role for five years because I'm not dealing with tens of thousands Of candidates that's the difference here Um but the technology is getting better And easier you know looking through Systems scrolling through systems and And what's nice about these two things Is recruiters are also educating Themselves so the need becomes lower and Lower so what you're going to find is Probably like you find in in most things In 10 years there will still be some

Organizations asking you to do this but These will be these big slow-moving Dinosaur organizations that even today When you want to apply for anything Online or do anything if you want to do It in a in a startup it's two clicks and You're in if you want to do it for Example in the city hall or any Government organization it's 15 pages so It's just it's just uh it's educational Technology meeting together and it's Just taking time sharply but I agreed It's super painful and it's it's not Really sorry but I just was like as you Were providing this answer I was just Thinking that it's actually a really Great screening opportunity for the Candidate so if I don't want to work in A slow paced moving company I will not Fill in my CV three times it it is it I Mean it's an upper in itself and this is Something like and the same way that you Know I when I was when you know I think Even Even from working Sponsoring in email marketing days and We had the debate of what should a sign Up form look like and the statistics Showed that for every data field you add You lose seven percent of your sign ups And then it's okay because maybe you Don't want every sign up in the same way That I think some companies are using uh Application forms to also see who's

Committed enough to fill out three or Four extra Fields it works both ways Right and it's all about what are you Willing to sacrifice but it's definitely It's the and you know one thing that Recruiters should be doing and they will Be doing in five years is looking at Application forms candidate application Conversion ratio and they are not doing This now hopefully they'll be doing it In the future let's hope so well you Know they will do eventually because What they're starting to learn now is How much it cost them to get people to The application form in the first place So when your CV when your CEO says or Your CFO says Hey listen you spent uh Four thousand dollars on that last Recruitment process um and you've got 12 Candidates is that Optimum amount of Cost versus candidates and we'll have to Answer those questions but we're not That's not mainstream but it's coming as Recruitment becomes more expensive it's Coming that's actually a thing I'm Personally very interested in like does It is it better to have A thousand applicants that you have to Dig through you have to look for those Data fields on or you have 12 but those Are highly selected 12. I think it's It's definitely like how long is a piece Of string question and it's definitely Like what's nice is that

Um there's a lot of talk about this Lately where we are moving away from This preconception that I want more Candidates by default we normally feel Better making a decision when we feel That we've had enough comparison like Give me 20 candidates so I can pick the Best one but the the statistics show now That this is a extremely risky tactic And ironically like I'm an advocate for What we call fastest first Intrepid Which is as soon as you've got any Candidate that takes your boxes you Should just hire them instantly Regardless of their candidate one 20 100 You should you should hire them because Of the market now and how how it works And also the candidate experience but Um I definitely think we are moving from A quantity to Quality slow I think it Makes the perfect sense because one of The things I hate the absolute most and I think this is the most ridiculous Reason to prolong the recruitment Process is when you've passed three or Four stages and they say okay we really Like you like you've just passed the Final stage you've done great but we Want to interview a couple more people Or we still have like two or three People and we want to have like five or Six people to choose from it just Devalues yourself as a candidate because Like well if you like me you would hire

Me right So it's like for me it's mind-blowing Because every person we talk to like What you've just said to me Wilco yeah Of course yeah we've got an entire Industry that ignores it but it's it's Com I mean I'm 110 on that side of like Um what are you doing yeah like this This this this literally is the craziest Thing you could do and it even goes Against like if you compared any other Human interaction that is in a similar Category you couldn't do that let's say Dating oh that was a great day but I Need to date five other people before we Can move to the next stage or vice let No other human interaction follows that Rule and I think the only reason for That is because so much power was in the Employees that they could say for so Many years Hey listen if you you know You're gonna have to wait and you're Gonna you know you need this job you Need this thing and now the power has Changed but yeah I mean it's it's Fundamentally crazy we wouldn't do that With sales you know we wouldn't do that With a customer or yeah that's great I'm Gonna go and see if I can find another Customer that will pay more than you Will so you know wait for me yeah you Know so so yeah it is it and I think It's uh I think it's a it's a safety Mechanism companies use to compare

Because also they haven't had a time to Do that groundwork of before we start Recruiting who would be a good person For us so when they don't do that when They don't come up with this Specification of who's a good person the Only thing they can do is take the best Of who they have which is a probably a Bad tactic in my opinion long term what You should do is Define first because What you should also be like like we are We all know now the cost of a bad hire So what you shouldn't also is like I've Got these five candidates I don't really Like any but that person's the best you Shouldn't hire any of them meantime but We do we do this a lot because we like We Like we roll let's just take the person We've got and again it's a sign of the Fact that I don't think any companies Are doing this to be awful they just Either haven't got the time or the Experience yet to know how to hire based On specification and that kind of thing Yeah it's it's all about Canada Experience right and this is something That is hopefully going to grow I think This is also this parallel first of all I really appreciate that you're always Drawing those parallels between like Recruitment and sales or Recruitment and Everyday life and it also kind of comes Down to personalization again and

Knowing who you Market to or who you Want to recruit so you need to have this Profile in order to have a conversion Sorry my marketing slang creeping in it It's still like for me I'm still like Because I've gone probably to such The Other Extreme of this and I'm I'm Constantly thinking how do you Streamline and make recruitment Processes attractive I'm still even like I even look at things like recruitment Processes that have three interview you Stated and I'm like that's insane now For me however you know that there is Obviously there is some element that it Works or vice versa and Etc but but yeah I mean like I I'm probably so like Moving towards the candidate element of Of the experience because if you do this Really late if you only realize if you Realize this last it's going to be super Painful for your business because all Like recruitment is also this thing that Is really interesting because everyone Is your competitor and this is a really Hard thing to experience as well right Like I can be really you know my network In Poland is great I have lots of Friends in different companies like dead Response or brand 24. we could all Instantly become recruitment competitors If we're all hiring from acting at the Same time so it's a it's a crazy space Because of this as well so you've got to

You've got to move you've got to invest Into recruitment into into keeping an Eye on it and looking at it because Everyone is your competitor every day as Well in the fact that they may be trying To talk to your team members they may be Interested in your team members as well So it's it's hard you can't sleep on Recruitment but so many of us do because We don't it's also not most of the most Attractive part of a company sometimes It's not the it's much easier for a CEO To go I want to go and find out what They do the marketing guy I had an idea Last night it's very rare for a CEO to Go oh I want to go talk to HR today Because I had a great idea about Recruitment it's we're not there yet We're not there I've listened to a great Podcast It it will come with cost and I I kind Of have this fundamental thing that like Uh the cost uh the cost of acquiring a Candidate last year grew something like 43 you know it just it you either have To spend more on people on agencies on Job boards and finding the candidate is Becoming more challenging and more Challenging so you have to spend more Money so I think just even if companies Don't want to adapt they will start to Because the cost will increase and sadly That will that's always the thing that Kind of gets people's attention that but

The employer branding budget just went Up 30 oh my God why why why why is that Happening and so on but it's it's still Going to be good even if even if Companies have forced to to look into it They will be thankful for it at the end I think sure uh which brings me to let's Say a kind of experience that I find a Bit awkward that there's this super long Process and let's say that the first Stage is like you are approached by a Recruiter saying hey I represent this Company from this industry but I can't Tell you which company exactly and then I have this offer so I I have this name Of the position but I can't tell you the Salary so actually you have this limited You know database let's say and then I'm Wondering what is the reason for this Very first stage because when you when You've mentioned let's say the cost I Believe that if we shortened the process It should also be related to reduction Of cost of the whole thing [Music] But I'm just wondering like why why is It still happening that you are let's Say approached by somebody who says like Hey I've got this great product want to See it just come over to my place next Week or something like this yeah even You know and so so most of the time this Happens because that is a contracted Recruiter or an agency recruiter and

They are terrified that they will be Like Hey listen I've got a great job and Get for you a get response and you go oh Thank you but what I'll do is I'll go to The get response career page apply Directly and you're not going to get Your commission and there is so much Technology to fix this now already like Why are we living in the Stone Age let's Go and look at the affiliate marketing Or partnership marketing or whatever but That's that's fundamental you know it's It's so crazy that it's not even like The the most common uh element of that Is obviously like external recruiters Like I have a great job for you but I Need to show that company that you came Through me before I can claim my my Commission this still happens also in Big organizations internally because you Might have a team of five recruiters and They're all trying to say that they Brought the candidate so the one that Gets me the most is like if you would Have liked to if you want even if it's The name of the job or I'm hiring for my Company and traffic if you want to apply Email me at make a yeah I'm Like so why don't you just send them an Application form let them apply like you Know nobody wants to apply by email You're going to lose if you drop off and It's because they want to blame the Candidate so we are we are sacrificing

Again candidate experience for old Structure or technology all setups and So on and it's just because they just Haven't been forced to innovate but it's Yeah it I always think that agencies and And I feel sorry for agencies they Should have already fixed this but yeah Would you like to apply for a job I Can't tell you where it is and I can't Tell you what the salary is and you need To sign this document like that but Before you can and you're like of course I'm not gonna do that like that's crazy It actually sounds like a trap it's like If you say yes it is like okay this guy Is like It's a crazy person You know it's like Mick would you like To go on a date but I can't tell you who It's with and you will only find out When you're when you're married wow Awesome I can't can't wait like I think There's a reality TV show like this Somewhere so yeah this is um but but Again like yeah when you when you break It down and you talk about it on a One-to-one scale it sounds insane but as A uh categorically we are doing this Today like it's happening with some of The major organizations and it's a lack Of investment in technology and even not About cost but time to learn yeah so a Traffic Even in our product you can have A UTM link and I can give a UTM link to

You and say yeah like if you find anyone That might work for traffic I can see in The system all those candidates came From your link and I will give you a Buyer pay later for it kind of thing and Probably in traffic right now 90 of our Clients don't do it even when we tell Them about it so it's just uh it's just A you know the same way that I'm sure That you probably have a bunch of Clients get response to you 10 of the Functionality and you you we we are in Yeah we are deep we're like why would You not but we have have to stand back And think well why why can't they why Not and I think it's just it's a little Bit of time it's a little bit of Self-esteem I also think that's probably A big can of worms to open which is one Of the things I learned is that Recruiters have a love-hate relationship With technology and this this is like a Nice segue for us because they are they Don't want to be replaced they they want To keep security and they also as as Again we talked about this HR department Environment have been very very people Focused they they have a preconception That technology and automation will make These situations colder less personal They will take away the human aspect of It um and I think that is something that Also is just the wrong preconception um The same way that now lots of marketers

And content people are going oh my God Chat you know GPT is going to replace me No it's not it's terrible yes it is Social media was going to kill email Marketing than it did just Preconceptions just all preconceptions But I think that's a big part of it that They don't think I I'll give can I give Us tiny story just because it's it's Hilarious that um for those watching From outside of Poland we have a store Like a grocery store in Poland called Japan Um who you know and they've implemented A really amazing technology that you Have the employee working behind the Cashier and you also have self-checkout Yeah everybody serves them my local Japan self-checkout is basically covered In packages hidden like not connected Not plugged in and eventually we kind of Said to the employee like like what's Going on like the queue is like six People and I I can't self-check out and They're like yeah we don't want to lose Our jobs oh okay okay okay out you can Argue with it it's definitely the whole Idea of the Technologies to streamline It but what they've probably missed is That yeah well instead of checking People's food out they could be going Doing other things but there's just that Again that fear of technology and they Literally did it like you know it's it's

Hidden away with accutism and goods and Everything is so funny like that they Are like trying to hide I've seen a Better one in Japan because it is now Like the shops on Sundays are usually Closed In Poland and in some of japkas they've Introduced those self-cash desks as the Only working thing on a Sunday but you Cannot buy alcohol there unless it's Less than four percent what they're Doing is that a person must be in the Store for the store to be open on Sunday But the person doesn't stand at the desk Because you can only use the Self-checkout cashier so what they do is Like they're verifying your product is You are scanning them yourself and this Is like it's screaming for automation It's just Here we are but it will come with I feel like Super Lucky with the Equipment because you can look at Marketing five years ago sales 10 years Ago kind of thing and you can relate to How people felt about certain things at Certain times and what was adopted and Also what was was taken away yeah like a Prime example for me is like all the Automation around social media that came Out like Auto likes Auto follows also Replies and ironically we decided as a Society that we're going to drop some of Them or we're going to make them illegal

Because they are ruining the experience For everyone and I think the same thing Will happen in recruitment will go to One extreme selling and buying data for Email marketing and eventually we said Hey listen though let's stop going too Far let's go back to permission based And everyone was happy about it so it's We we are just we're at this moment I Think exactly and usually when we Maneuver through uncertainty there is a Bit of fear tied to that and some people I believe that they just tend to lean Towards the fear element I remember that In email marketing let's say but it was Like eight years ago or maybe nine where Actually you know there was this HTML as The core scale of a email marketer and Right now we use those drag and drop Editors and we don't worry about it but Still we have even more work because we Need to think about the experience we Need to think about like you know how The users really feels uh meanwhile you Know like 10 years back we would be just Focusing on the code and just like Hoping that this image will look good Eventually so uh yeah so we somehow you Know just went into the Automation and Into the technology side of our Conversation so I wanted to ask you to Make about the technology that you're Coming with like okay so we we discussed Briefly the recruitment as a process and

As an experience I believe that it is also very like the Recruitment process is related to Uncertainty because the candidate has no Idea what's going to happen next Obviously people are hoping for the Better I would say so there is like some You know serious expectations also Um you know the employer they do not Know who they are hiring really because It's only based on several you know Conversations Foreign [Music] How does technology help what can we do To make this process easier what can we Do to make it better and feel better Okay okay now now now we get into this Like okay so um I've got a couple of Angles of this right so let's first talk Maybe talk about like real-time uh Recruitment processes Um first of all I think like the the one Of the biggest enemies in recruitment Processes is time for technically it Should be for both sides some some most Of the time employers they create these Bubbles of time like you said they want To they want to interview other people But still it's even fundamentally like Um time is the enemy and I've always Said this I think the worst thing ever Is thank you so much for your time on Interview it was really great I really

Enjoyed talking to you we'll let you Know and what I want to say is you let Me know when like should I should I Refresh my inbox instantly you know like Kind of thing when it's too long when It's Etc so time and and transparency I Think are the keys that that technology Have but really Elevate Um and one of the things I think is is Really important is also like even Coming back to the methodology of Recruitment in my experience probably Not not crazy experience probably I've Done like maybe two 300 interviews over My career for people in my teams within 30 minutes I know if that person is a Good fit or not after that but we'll Tell people we need a week to really Consider it but I probably know even Five minutes after the interview like it Clicked it didn't click whatever so what We've got to be really what we've got Existing why can't we tell that person Five minutes after that yeah maybe we Need to play hard to get yeah maybe we Do but also nowadays we probably value Transparency over you know negotiations Etc so so one of the things for example Is there were another thing that is Really important during recruitment Processes we did a study on this and it Was something like 90 plus percent of All content sent to candidates during The recruitment process is the same you

Know we would like to we thank you so Much for applying for job X we would Like to interview you to the next stage Which is you know why would you do that So but we we are constantly rewriting These emails copy and pasting them from Notes so what what what I believe is Where automation comes in Step One is When the candidate is you look you Screen the CV takes you 30 seconds 60 Seconds And you click like yeah I can validate That candidate that should be it when You click validate systems and Technologies in place can email that Candidate straight away saying you here Not only has it you know you've been Validated here's what you should do next Here's a link for calendar to pick your Interview yeah we have all these like Nice little Technologies and also we can Even notify hiring managers like hey Meg A recruiter the equipment team have Found a candidate for your Clean roll This is the candidate if you want to Look in advance as well so from a from An instant like my my vision my my dream For recruitment is that I believe we Should have Um parcel delivery tracking type Technology that you when you apply for a Job you get your code like we do when we Get something delivered by in post or or

DHL and you click on it and you see the Recruitment process you are currently Now being considered by the validated by The recruitment team they will reply With to you within 24 hours so we set Those times up times you are now Candidate you are one of seven Candidates at the interview stage I Think why not why why not because I Think it's a shame that candidates have To wait to try and find out what's going On in the same way that if you if if you Interviewed someone and they're not a Right fit and you click in your Recruitment system like unsuccessful why That can inst why they can't see that Instantly and yes okay we have to take Into the human emotional element so we Should be writing that person the way This is why we didn't accept you except But like so first thing I will do is That transparency and I would have Probably a constant two-way Communication which again is not there So what I mean is like if if we have That kind of parcel type dashboard that Basically is a candidate you could have A chat box which says hey guys I'm just Writing to you because I've been on the Stage for three three days do you need Any more information you know like open Up the integration I know I think that's The big blocker for that is not just Technology but I one of the things as

Well is I think that as a company when We recruit we kind of see recruitments As painful and interruptions so we Talked about that that uncertainty like You said of when you're a candidate you Apply for a job you don't know what's Going to happen when when I open a job Position for marketing manager at Traffic I genuinely don't know when People are going to apply so I don't Know if I should keep my Friday clear For interviews whether it shouldn't and What we have to do is adapt and make Recruitment the priority during that Time and be more flexible that while We're recruiting I'm always available Within 48 Hours also so so I think That's one element of technology that is Really underrated undervalued right now That we need to stop making recruitment Look like I even think that we we slow Down communication because we want to Give the impression that we so I'll give You an example actually in recruitment It's really but it's even challenging Right now that there are some systems That let's say you apply for a job and a Company is really quick so it's the CV Comes through you get a notification Notification like we do on slack you Have a new candidate you look at the CV Oh it's not right for us you click Rejecting say sorry and on Twitter the Next day we'll be like uh Trafford uh

Automatically reject people because you Do fast because you do because you're Too fast so people can't believe that There was some thought process behind That right yeah you go you you so you You can't discard the emotional element Of applying for a job and being nobody Likes rejection everybody likes being Accepted so we can't ignore that even Now at traffic we are considering Building Technology that will you can Set a time delay so reject that person Instantly and the email will go 30 Minutes later even though you already Did it like but I thought you know when You when you've mentioned that I think That feedback like valuable feedback Also like validates quick decision Because you can just make up your mind Like in five minutes but if you say why Then I'm totally okay with it and it Also helps me because I'm probably in Several recruitment processes at this Moment so then I realize okay this is The kind of aspect that you know I I've Been rejected because of that and you Actually really helped me so still I Think that this recruitment process if Even though it was not successful it was Really helpful for me because now I know More and we I and I fully agree and the I think another thing that I'm I believe In is that recruiters or hiring managers Believe that feedback is either if it's

Not super detailed it's not value so if I can't give that person two paragraphs If I didn't hire them they're just going To be mad where actually if you talk to Candidates even saying like I couldn't Give you this this role right now Because Um you haven't have enough experience Doing this but thank you so much so Again that's where technology comes into Place Hey listen the rejection the Overall rejection category is experience The subcategory is not enough experience In X please go send that email right Away yeah and Technology can do that and For now again I don't think it's Fantastic I think eventually people will Want more feedback more human Interaction but right now 55 of candidates don't even hear that They will rejected and something like 72 Percent of candidates that were rejected Didn't get told why even because X not Talking about they didn't get a Paragraph they didn't fundamentally they Were like sorry we can't we didn't take You for the job good luck so we we even Taking baby steps towards being better Like you didn't get the job because you Didn't have this you didn't get the job Because of this categorical answer Because you you lack the language skill That we need for now I think candidates Will still be like okay that's better

Than before it's not perfect but it's Better than before and we should take These steps I don't know because to me The why is even more important than the Fact that I was rejected and there is an Absolutely painful story of me being Rejected one of the first jobs I ever Applied to I passed all the interviews They also paid for me to do this on site And so that was a costly recruitment Process on their end and like now four Years later I can probably imagine that I was overqualified for the job I wasn't Told that the the official reason why I Got rejected was because I've said on an Interview that I would prefer for the Team to have friendly relationships Within the work environment and the Reason that I got rejected was well you Understand not everyone's going to be Friends at work I was like yeah I Understand but I would prefer it to be This way no I I think I I think that the Other thing to do like we again we do it We do this in marketing so if you want To learn more about get response right Now you have the option to read a piece Of content have a call with probably a Salesperson watch a webinar watch a Video tutorial one of the things I Really like one of the best practices I See in recruitment is I'm sorry like you Were rejected for this reason if you Would like to do if you would like to

Know more or talk to me about it here's A link to Book 15 minutes of my time I Love this like for me this is like yes Not everybody will want to know not Every for some people it will be obvious But for those people that are like not Even that they want like contest it Which they they can if they want but Even if they want to be like okay can we Talk because maybe it was the fact that I'd like to learn how to give this Answer in a different way next time Because it sounds like we're Misunderstood I really like those and um That is something that I think is really Important and it kind of comes to what Is like my big finale of the podcast Episode which is also Um recruitment right now is is Ridiculously wasteful in general it's Ridiculously wasteful so I have this Um I have this concept that you you want To hire someone you get 20 candidates You can only hire one and right now we Are throwing 19 away forever most of the Time by setting it on fire and throwing It in the bin that kind of level of of Of of throwing it away you know like no Feedback no re no open door like we we Really don't think about the longevity Of those relationships and I think the More we do the more we see the value by The way it's not about just being good People but there is a there is a huge

Amount of value in those 19 people uh That can also help companies to to adapt A little bit as well now donation can Help you to stay in touch with the Rejected candidates right it's the only Way ironically it's the only way because Yes the like the when when we talk to When we talk to recruiters and Businesses about uh how we handle Rejections yeah which is the majority of What we do um one of the answers is well The CEO will doesn't care about the Rejected candidate because you know They're not adding value to the business And I'm not paid to give rejections and Some very talented recruiters I know who Are great people are like listen if I go To that if I go to my my CEO and say I Spend 27 of my time this month talking To reject candidates they would be Annoyed yeah Um but fundamentally on the flip side Like I said you reject 19 candidates and You want to keep in touch with it and Build a relationship no recruiter can Can reach out to them once a month and Say hey how you doing you want to talk I Mean maybe it's some c-level position Potentially but in general no so Ironically automate is the only way to Do that but it's a really good way to do It like it's I don't say it as a Sacrifice I see it as a light at the Tunnel like why are we not doing you

Know we've been we've been experimenting With this with traffic now for six Months and it's it's fantastic it really Works like it's it's really great for us I know we're a bit over time but do you Think it could provide us with some Examples of how you use automation to Keep in touch absolutely so that so There's two two things to know I'll be As quick as I can if I talk too quickly People can always find me on LinkedIn Afterwards and ask me a specific Questions so we've got two things with Traffic one is Um candidates who are unsuccessful at The time Um one of the things that one of my big Beliefs of why we invest into those Candidates even through automation is if You if we look at the reasons why Candidates are unsuccessful for applying For a job 80 to 90 of the reasons are Time related reasons they are the they Have uh we have a mismatching salary Expectations uh a mismatching experience Required for that role uh location even Sometimes can be a mismatch and all Those things change over time people Become more experienced they change Their expectations it's very rare that Someone is like oh my God I really Didn't like that person and even then That can be time related that can change People can be under pressure Etc so

Um so the first thing we do is we take Those 19 rejected candidates in this Hypothetical situation and we nurture Them and we keep in touch with them Because when we open up another role in Marketing in sales in products in 18 6 Months 12 months 24 months from now Those people are still qualified Candidates and I don't have to go and Pay the 28 dollars per candidate Acquisition fee that is the market Standard right now I don't have to go And buy another job advertisement I Don't have to pay for a job on LinkedIn Because I've got 19 candidates to choose From and if I found one successful Candidate from 20 there's a really good Chance I could find one successful Candidate from 19 like the conversion Doesn't go down the toilet So what we do is online rejected Candidates of course in real time they Get rejection reasons feedback Opportunity to talk more and then we Move them into a monthly newsletter Funnels mostly because we the key thing Is to remember uh the like one of the Biggest tips I can give when we Communicate with candidates month to Month oh in any any moment you have to Give value now that sounds super easy to Say but if you're saying hey here's a Newsletter Trafford is great we did all These great things which you've got this

Good and it's going to be like why would I care what like where's my value yeah So the first thing we do for now is we Categorize them by by departments so we Have an I.T part product part marketing Part customer success Etc and every Month we send those newsletters and we Try to find value for the candidates so It can be as simple as like Hey listen I Want to tell you uh I I want to like I Found a great article about customer Success I found a webinar like you know It's not always like giving something Free kind of thing you know sometimes We'll give access to things Um but even what's a great one I'll give You like a little hack is like let's say That like info share is around the Corner I can go to info share and say Can I have a five percent discount oh And I'll give it to my it candidate so You know you can negotiate those things As well so we do that month by month and Also we have to give them value so one Of the things we do it is a little bit Experimental they get exclusive Knowledge of our next movements so when We are hiring in customer success they Find out five days before we post it Live so they've got five days to buy and We might even hire someone in those five Days before we even go public with it But we give them because it has to mean Something to be in that group right it

Has to mean something different so we do That we give them insights into the Company as well so we do say like by the Way this is this is what called in the Company right now we we try to release This feature we changed our Methodologies from scrum to whatever Because ultimately we want to create Um we want to create anticipation with That candidate that they're like really Want to work at traffic oh my God like I'm waiting for that next role in Marketing and we want to create that Because when they go to market and they Get they wake up that one day and they Go okay it's time for me to change the Job I want to be here and I want the Competition to just be here yeah I want To be I want to already have the trust The brand the relationship that and I Wanted to check in and what now the Other thing we do which is the second Part is I talked about this yesterday on My LinkedIn which is we also have always Open positions so let's say you work Really hard on your employer branding Get response released like an awesome Video of the new office yesterday on LinkedIn it looked amazing I was like Please invite me for a podcast in the Office one day kind of thing and what we Believe in is that when you do great Things like that people should be able To go to your career page because that's

What you want them to do you want them To be like oh I want to work and then I Get then I'm like oh there's no there's No c-level jobs for me there's no Marketing manager jobs right now I Believe companies should have that door Open and what we do at traffic we call Them future style robes so you can apply For a customer success job that doesn't Exist today just but you can show me Your intent like and and it's all very Transparent hey we don't have a role Right now but we always are interested In new people and we're going to contact You once a month and keep you nurtured And let you know the next job and they Go in that same funnel as the rejected Customer success Camp so we in the last Year we gathered 84 candidates through Those future roles and we were when we Weren't home so but my automation is not About pretending that it's human contact It's not sending plain text messages Saying how is it going do you want to Change the job it's openly saying it's Automated hate nice HTML very obvious But I wanted my pure goal is to make you Know a little bit more about that that Kind of thing and it's so ridiculously Cost effective the ROI is insane it Takes me uh two hours a month to create A newsletter and get response I click Send I get response I think we pay you You know the pricing better than I do

It's not a lot of money Compared to the fact that what it would Cost me to buy a job advertisement on LinkedIn or wherever it may be or or something like it's it's Endless and The final kind of kicker for me is Remember rejected candidates or Potential candidates they are they're Applying for your job so they're Applying for these future star jobs Because they're falling in love with Your brand that's okay yeah maybe not so Extreme but they they have a brand Affection for you if you don't hire them In the future they can become your Future customers they're going to go and Work in every marketing everyone that Applies for an acting role at get Response goodbye gets response in a Different company yeah and even if they Don't buy your product they will become An ambassador for you they'll be like oh Get response is awesome and that's so That's why that's the added benefit here When if you're head of HR says oh I Don't know go talk to your head of sales And marketing and say listen how would You like me to nurture 80 leads a month Okay so yeah yeah that was like a not Not a very fast way of saying how I Believe in nurturing people losing Automation and that was fantastic thank You so much

[Music] Well I think that was a great Conversation and I really hope that mix Vision and traffic's Mission get spread More especially across European hiring And most of our processes can become Much more candidate oriented Automated and easier for all the parties Involved because as we know it's pretty Challenging when you hire wrong like Mija what do you think as a manager Maybe you've had some experiences Like what is the cost of the wrong hire I think there are multiple layers to This actually uh I think at least three So if you're hiring Um and you hire the wrong person for the Role you have invested money into them Into the hiring process into educating Them onboarding them you've probably Spent three or four months getting them On board and for some reason that Doesn't work out well then you've kind Of wasted three or four months on the Whole process and and many people's time To do this and there might be many Reasons why you know we're not following With the candidate but in general it is You know it's kind of wasted time Although you do learn throughout this Process as well who you really want for That role or who you don't want for that Role or what's wrong with that row so It's not completely wasted then there's

Another layer to it if you hire someone That is in the right fit for the team I Think that can have a bad impact on Everyone around so they will notice that You've hired someone for example for a Higher position then they should have Been hired they don't have the enough Experience and knowledge or and they're Just not the right fit so it could just Um I guess impacted the relationships That you have with other team members Because for example someone might have Been looking for for a race or they Wanted to be promoted to a higher Position and then you hired someone else For that position so it can impact your Whole team and if you do it you know Multiple times that you hire someone for That role and they leave or you're not Just sticking with them for longer then It can be a bad thing and the third one I guess uh you know if you're in a Healthy organization that shouldn't be The case but it I imagine that you're Higher if you're hiring for a role it is Because your manager or your board Members they want you to fill out that Gap that you have they want to need to Reach certain goals and if you do it Multiple times that you just don't fill In that position and you don't meet the The goals that you were set to meet then They might question the reasons for this And you know it's not a good excuse to

Say well you know I've tried to hire Four people for that role and spend an Entire year hiring for that role that Isn't something that you want to say to Them they want you know to see their Goals they want to see the results they Don't want to see you know the reasons For it because it could be the case that You know maybe there's something wrong With the with the team with the approach That you're not making the company uh You know a super cool place to work with Or your teammates to work along with so I think they're these three layers that You have to keep in mind that you know Hiring the wrong person or in the wrong Way has a cost And wow thank you so much for bringing This up because this is something that I Have never thought about because I was Pretty lucky in my experiences I usually Tend to work for smaller companies maybe Startups Where your hiring manager is oftentimes The see someone who is also a founder of The said company so it's much shorter It's much faster sometimes there's not Even a recruiter involved so it's much More straightforward but you're Absolutely correct if you're a part of a Larger organization and you're trying to Fill the role within this organization Then absolutely there are all these Levels above you that have pure business

Goals that are not just about feeling The role so yeah that's an amazing Point Thanks again for it And you've also mentioned that Um it's kind of sad in recruitment when The person leaves after four or five Months Which makes me want to ask how do you Feel about Job hopping So yeah I've never done this myself so you know I might be biased in here in my opinion You know their pros and cons to this Approach but from my perspective If someone's joining you for only Several months it usually is not enough Especially in a bigger organization it's Not been it's not enough for them to Fully understand your company your Target audience How processes go in the company so if You're investing a lot of time into them So I guess it's not enough time to fully Educate them and it's not enough time to Fully benefit from them because usually The first three months it is about them Learning as much as possible talking to As many people as possible and not not Always bringing in the results just yet You know they've probably on the content Side let's say they've probably not run Their first webinars or done their first Articles or published courses so in one Way I feel it's sad if someone does this

And it leaves in my opinion it could Leave a bad taste unless you know There's a very good reason for this and Everyone understood this on the other Side I can see benefits of of this Especially for the the person that does It uh you know they're probably getting Paid more when they're helping between Companies they're finding the true Meaning of the job or something that They really want to do and they've just Learned what doesn't work for them or What things they want to do so there are Many benefits for the person I can Imagine that it's working for them For the company I think less so so I Would say from my perspective yeah I mean I see your perspective and I Think it's very valid however I am Guilty is charged I do tend to change Jobs like every year or so for now I've Been in an organization for a year and a Half and that's my personal record and At this point I'm starting to feel like You know a little too comfortable maybe That I feel like I know all the Processes I know all the people and it's An excellent round for you to want to Grow to maybe take up some extra courses Maybe to mat a little bit on the side Start your freelancing Consulting Etc But at the same time yeah of course Celery boost is a great benefit of Changing jobs but also you get so much

Experience you get so much more Opportunities to learn new things to see How approaches can be changed That's amazing that's true so I would Definitely agree with you and I've been Here for more than 11 years and I've Changed my roles multiple times as well So probably that is the reason why I Wasn't hopping between different Companies is that I'm always learning New things I started as an account Manager working directly with customers Then moved to the marketing department Where we were building an education Department working also with customers But on a different in a different format Then we turned into content team back Then SEO wasn't a thing so now we're Learning more about SEO about lead gen And everything so you know the job is Constantly changing even if you're doing One company but if you did it between Multiple companies you would learn new Setups managerial Styles you would learn New processes new tools probably as well But on the other side I really like I Really like the this comfortable feeling That you just uh referred to is that I Know all the people within my Environment I know whom to talk to I Have personal relationships with these People so I can talk to them about Anything come up with an idea and I Don't have to think about the politics

Oh would it be right for me to talk About their processes or their Department or what they're doing or am I Stepping on someone's toes I don't have To worry about all these things so even You know when I was on vacation I wasn't Thinking like oh you know there's this Thing I want to bring up I cannot do it Because you know it might be looked down Upon well this isn't the case at least In my perspective no I think it's the Case of being in a healthy company Environment which is a very important Bit but yeah absolutely I think both Approaches have pros and cons as you've Mentioned and each different each work For different people as you've mentioned Before so it can be a generational thing It can be a culture thing so many Different reasons for example I worked Most of my time remotely so I'm very Pro Remote work but again I see benefits of Coming to the office So guys what do you think do let us know Whether you prefer staying in the same Company for years on by getting Experience sharing your experience and Seeing the business grow Or if you're more like me and you want To see a little bit more of a rapid Change in your lives and your careers You can do that of course by sending us An email via podcast at And you can hear more operation

Automation episodes across Apple podcast Google podcast Spotify audible or Wherever you get your podcasts And stay tuned for more because the next Episode is coming out very soon have a Great week ahead of you [Music] Operation automation is backed up by get Response the marketing automation Platform that's been on the market for Over 20 years subscribe for more juicy Insights and remember automate don't Complicate

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